I'd like to say a few things for truth and clarity.
One is not all twelve deciples were martyred, one lived and spread the word and lived, albeit a rough life, even being once shipwrecked, he died naturally.

Saying man wrote the Bible is like saying a court stenographer wrote the transcript. The stenographer is more in the role of copyist than author, as in taking dictation, and the work is verified. If they get it incorrect they dont have a job. Along this line of thought then concider the authors of the Bible more like penmen. The new testament was written contemporaneously. Matter of fact there is evidence of it being written and finished by 70AD. Everyone whom wrote the New Testament was alive during Jesus' lifetime.
One of the biggest problems lies in the word, and practice of, religion. Jesus did not start, have, carry on in, or otherwise be a part of religion.
He was and is Truth incarnate. The best way to understand that is to not believe me or anyone else. You have to search the scriptures for yourself. There are many secular evidences and proofs too mind you. Tacitus and Herodotus have written records that mention the things of the days of Christ. The scroll of Cyrus is irrefutable proof of prophetic writings. 700 years separate the recording from the entry of Cyrus into Jerusalem. Besides Herodotus is concidered the father of historical recording by historians both Christian and secular.

And you can know the will of the Father, not to get someones money or tell you what soda to buy, but by submission to Him and His Word, He will make it known to you. It is about a relationship with Him. Why else would he have sent his Son except his love for us?

God loves you and he wants you to come out of the darkness and into the light. We love you no matter what you say.

Remember, if we are wrong we have had fun fellowshipping with the Brethren, but if you are wrong you will burn in the lake of fire for eternity.

Love ya, mean it!

Read 1st Corinthians 1:18













I don't like my cookies burnt.

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

First off, this is NOT the ProBro Site and we are not about "free-wheeling good times, partying and hucking..." I enjoy flying model airplanes and having a good time, but debauchery is no longer something I wish to be a part of.

This particular forum is devoted to bible study. This is not a religious cult and no one here is trying to be self righteous or condescending.... You are free to hold what ever beliefs you find suitable. You are free to debate your beliefs if you wish as I always encourage a good debate... You are NOT free to bash others for what they believe.

My best advice to you is to visit websites that espouse your particular believes. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

I found this discussion interesting. One point made by ProBro was the Catholic Church... As for "Church" history the Catholic Church hasn't helped real followers of Christ just like the evil "televangelists" mislead ignorant and desperate people. I hate hearing my personal, growing, powerful, and loving relationship with Christ being put in the same category with the Catholic Church, which the media does a lot. The Catholic Church and the televangelists don't follow ALL of God’s word. It is as simple as that. Now saying that, God says we are all sinners in His eyes (Romans 3:9-18) and in that way we can compare our selves with the Catholic Church and the televangelists. The Catholic Church was not and still is not following God’s word. They have hatefully persecuted, tortured, murdered, kept people ignorant, distorted truth, worship idols (Mary and the “Saints”), and a myriad of other things in the name of the God of the Bible.
But to me they are no different than the Muslims that claim they follow the Karan and Ala but don’t fight Jihad like the Karan says they should. They are supposed to subdue and force Islam on the non believers as a duty. There are Muslims that claim they are “peaceful” and don’t act like the “extremists” but there is nothing extreme about the terrorist, they are just following what the Karan says in it’s entirety. I have read some of the Karan, trust me it is very demanding and cold. But we Christians claim to follow all of God’s word and we fail just like the above examples. God wants us to be set apart from the world (Morals and denying the flesh) and to express love; we fail at that on a regular basis. Trust me I have been in churches that have so called pastors that have affairs and embesseled money. But I didn’t attribute those examples to a failure on God’s part or a weakness of the word of God. Or did I just give up on God and what he said, I recognized that those people were not being obedient to God just like I fail Him on a regular basis. Of course those pastors shouldn’t be in the ministry any more though because they ARE held to a higher standard. By the way that includes the pastors and priests who have abused children as well (just coving all skeptical bases). But God has given us a way out of condemnation through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and his resurrection. We shouldn’t use His sacrifice as a ticket to sin, but we can’t be perfect either.
All this is to say there is so much depth and love to Jesus and what He came to tell us, but more than just a message from a good man. It is a word from THE WORD. Not only can we believe in Christ’s resurrection but also the accuracy of His word. Not only based on Paul’s examples but also on history, archeology, and other personal accounts. I mean even when Mary came back from the tomb to say that Christ’s body was gone, is a good example. In the Jewish culture at the time a woman’s testimony was worth nothing in court, so why would anyone say a woman discovered and announced this information if the followers faked the resurrection after Christ’s death. Another example, archeologists have found the remains of Egyptian chariots and armor in the “Red Sea” (parting of the Red Sea) Even all the hundreds of little prophecies that pertain to the Messiah became true. Like Paul said that the Messiah would be hung on a tree. Archeologists found the remains of Jericho and they say the walls look like they fell. You could say well there just happen to be an earthquake or some natural disaster that corresponds to all these supposed miracles. But the timing based on the goals and actions of the people of the time seem to me to be more than a coincidence with there being so many incidents in the Bible. Even now days there is story after story of people being healed from cancer and other disease after people pray for and with them. Yes a mental change can help but completely remove cancer that’s way different. Doctors have said they couldn’t explain the recoveries. I mean being hopeful hasn’t helped non believers overcome cancer COMPLETELY. What has basic hope done for anyone? So you accomplish some earthly goals, but it doesn’t last. Hope with an eternal perspective on the other hand is powerful.
I have typed so much I want to stop now (everyone cheers). If someone is a true tree seeker and a true debater than they will explore all sides of the Christian argument, including apologetics and historical facts. If I were a skeptic I would want to make SURE what Christians claim is untrue, because your eternal destination may depends on it. What do fleshly thing like sex, power, greed, and knowledge offer you if you die? Also no one is condemning you (if they are it isn’t Biblical) and no one is attacking you, remember we are all sinners in God’s eyes. Also remember the Bible is the most accurate and best selling book in the world, even more accurate than Homer’s Odyssey for centuries now. Don’t take the best selling part wrong. I have been a true seeker for many years even after I came into a personal relationship with Christ. A debate is always good, God says in His word “Come sit and reason with me” he invites you to question Him and His claims. But you can’t do that if you believe you know EVERYTHING about the Christian God and immediately dismiss Him. There are Christians out there that will willingly discuss the claims and statements of Christ. Now granted some people just don’t know God’s word well enough (I include my self in that) and can’t offer much more than love and encouragement, which is very important as well for a hurting person. But there is more than enough out there for people who have questions and disputes. The key to all this is openness and honesty, not insults and shutting down of the discussion. Well that was my 5 million cents; you can take it or leave it!

God bless and I hope God reveals him self to those who ask Him to but don’t yet believe,

-Devin St. Clair (For not being Catholic funny name huh?!)

Awesome stuff Devin... Apologetics has always been an interesting topic for me....

My first post in here. Hey Devin, have you guys seen the movie called Expelled? Ben Stein researched teachings of evolution and I agree with his views about it. IMO, there is a push to get religion out of schools and society. Check it out, it should be on DVD now. I was one of like 3 or 4 people at the show when I watched it. I guess it wasn't too popular, but it hit the nail right on.

I'm a Christian and grew up with a Catholic Father and Pentecostal Mother.

I enjoy the History Channel and a lot of the stuff they air, but I noticed that they usually try to debunk the bible and Christ on religious issues / topics.


JW